Books Insider: A conversation on the death of conversations

Books Insider is a regular feature from Dan Slater about the latest and best books in business and self improvement. Each month, through essays and interviews, Dan will introduce you to today's most fascinating authors.

America is in the throes of a "silent epidemic: a connection crisis," writes best-selling author Vanessa Van Edwards. We're hanging out less. We're talking to chatbots and agents more than we talk to people. The share of US adults who say they have no close friends rose from 3% in 1990 to 12% in 2023. We've lost the subtle art of conversation. Van Edwards, who has more than a million followers on Instagram and runs an Austin-based behavioral research lab called Science of People, wants to help us reconnect.

In her new book, "Conversation: How to Connect with Anyone and Make Every Interaction Count," she writes: "'I like you' might be the three most powerful words you can gift someone else. Why? Because we're terrified of being unlikable. And research shows that we grossly underestimate how much people like us." If venturing an "I like you" feels weird, that's okay. Exposure to social risk decreases our sensitivity to rejection and strengthens our confidence in connection. Confidence "is not the absence of discomfort — it's feeling awkward and doing it anyway," writes Van Edwards.

We all have "conversational power," she argues, and in "Conversation," Van Edwards' third book, she offers a blueprint for building it. The chapters are short, clear, and propulsive. The book's central aim is to guide the reader through three ascending levels of conversation. Some of her advice may sound woo-woo, but Van Edwards, a world class talker, swears by it.

At Level 1, putting people at ease, Van Edwards instructs us to banish small-talk and awkward silences by turning conversation into a treasure hunt. Don't ask: What do you do? Ask: What do you like to do? Lead with stories, not facts. And don't be afraid to add flair, or what Van Edwards calls conversational confetti: Can I tell you something really weird? To be more likeable in conversation, look for moments where you can authentically say, "Tell me more." To listen well, tilt your head slightly to one side, exposing neck and ear. To sound smart, ask for advice, or ask your conversation partner: What have you always wanted to learn?

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At Level 2, connecting deeply, we share and build one another's dreams. Avoid being quick to tarnish someone's aspirations with skepticism; get excited with them, and bring ideas. And if you don't love their dream, be curious rather than doubtful. Ask for more details. Who will this dream help?

It's our dreams, after all, that give our lives meaning, which is what Level 3 is all about. "When done well," Van Edwards writes, "Level 3 creates the rarest of relationships — the kind built on mutual insight, not just mutual interests."

I recently caught up with Van Edwards for a conversation about "Conversation."

DS: I used to consider myself a conversationalist. Reading "Conversation" made me realize how superficial many of my conversations are.

VVE: I was having conversations that, even though I was trying, were more like surface-level updates. How's the family? How are the kids? Very fact finding. And I wondered why I didn't look forward to socializing, why I was always so drained by my interactions.

DS: You begin the book with a painfully funny anecdote about how you once lost out on a big career opportunity when nerves got in the way. You were trying to perform rather than be present. Now, when you're working with students, whether at Google or Harvard, how do you move them away from old conversational habits that kill connection?

VVE: I ask a simple question: "How exhausting is it to make small talk?" And everyone agrees that it's totally exhausting. And I say, "It's because you're trying to be impressive." Oddly, now that we have fewer conversations, we feel like the conversations we do have matter more. Some people only see their boss once a year, at the off-site, and think, I better be impressive! But it's tiring, and never works.

DS: While I was reading, I suffered a Level 1 conversation defeat. My son had a friend over. When the friend's dad came to pick up his kid, I asked him what he was up to for the rest of the day. He was like, "I'm going home to do the quarterly taxes for my business, and then my wife is making dinner." And that was it.

VVE: Always ask for stories, not facts. And respond with stories, not facts. A fact is a dead-end. A story is a doorway.

DS: Your story about trying to find friends for your husband made me laugh. Why do men struggle to connect?

VVE: I don't know. I'm not a man. But what I have seen is that if a man is happy — in his home life, his routine, his business — he thinks he doesn't need friends. It's a lot of work.

DS: You note that it takes about 50 hours of interaction to go from acquaintance to casual friend, and 200+ hours to develop a close friendship.

VVE: That's what the research says. I was pretty shocked by that. Who's got 200 hours?

DS: Are there any shortcuts?

VVE: Going sequentially, through nine power questions, can speed things up. For each of the three levels, I propose three questions. At Level 1, the questions are geared toward general traits: "Working on anything exciting these days?" At Level 2, you're trying to find out about personal concerns: "What do you love to talk about?" Level 3 questions elicit the other person's self-narrative. One of the most powerful questions you can ask is: "What would you do if you weren't afraid?" You can honor someone's hidden fears by asking, "What did you fail at this week?"

DS: You point out that our fate is determined by the story we tell about ourselves. You list five different narratives: The Ambitious Hero, The Contented Pragmatist, The Selfless Helper, The Creative Disruptor, and the Unlucky Struggler. The first four are desirable. But the Unlucky Struggler is that stuck person whose life is full of obstacles and regret. Their self-knowledge tends to be low, and they often ignore solutions offered to them. About how many of us are Unlucky Strugglers?

VVE: Maybe between 15 and 20%. But it's not evenly distributed. At a company, if you have 100 people, it's not like 15 to 20 will be Unlucky Strugglers. It depends on the hiring manager. If the hiring manager is an Ambitious Hero, then you might have 100 Ambitious Heroes. But if the hiring manager is a Selfless Helper, and trying to fix people, then you might have 50 Unlucky Strugglers. And then you often see friend groups where everyone in the group is an Unlucky Struggler.

DS: How does that happen?

VVE: I think the phrase "misery loves company" is accurate. If you're an Unlucky Struggler, then being around people who feel lucky can be painful. The Unlucky Struggler looks at the Ambitious Hero and thinks: Why you? Why not me?

DS: What conversational tips can you offer to those who want to support an Unlucky Struggler?

VVE: You can't convince an Unlucky Struggler that they're lucky. But you can help empower them that they're the author of their own life, that even if they have no control over the external, they have control over the internal.

DS: I have a rescuer part that often wants to jump in and help, and it seems like you do as well. How do you moderate that? Or do you not moderate it?

VVE: Ambitious Heroes and Selfless Helpers want to help. It's just my style. I'm aggressively helpful. It may not work. I may fail. But, if you allow me, I will bully you into getting your goal accomplished.